Podcasts

Geraint (0:02)
Hello, I’m Geraint Hardy and welcome to the Healthy Working Wales podcast brought to you by Public Health Wales. Over the series, we’ll be chatting to experts about a range of workplace health and wellbeing issues, empowering employers with the knowledge and support they need to help keep the Welsh workforce healthy and in work.

Geraint (0:30)
In this episode, we’re talking about financial wellbeing in the workplace, our guests today are Rhian Hughes and Lawrence Davies from the Money and Pensions Service. Rhian is the Wales Partnership Manager and has over 20 years’ experience of working on the financial wellbeing and financial inclusion agenda in Wales.

She also has experience of working within the mental health sector in Wales more recently, too. And Lawrence is a Pensions Technical Specialist with the Money and Pensions Service and has worked in the pensions industry since 1997.

His experience includes consultancy and in-house work, including designing tailor made occupational pension schemes for employers. Rhian and Laurence a warm welcome to you both. Lawrence, you can relax for a little bit now, but Rhian, we’ll turn our attention to you first, if we may. Welcome to you, Rhian. I hope you’re well today.

It’s a big topic we’ve got to discuss here but an interesting one as well. From your perspective, what’s the biggest issue surrounding financial wellbeing and the workplace currently?

Rhian (1:30)
Thank you, Geraint. Yes, you’re right. It is an interesting topic and affects us all. So, we know that money worries are the biggest cause of stress for employees across Wales and the UK. And are also damaging to businesses too. And people take their money worries to work which inevitably affects their performance and levels of sick leave.

The pandemic has shown us that it’s more important than ever for organisations to support their employees to build their financial wellbeing. And we also know the pandemic has meant significant challenges for many organisations, resulting in financial wellbeing slipping down the
ladder of priorities.

And as we navigate a new normal through the pandemic, with a phased return to the physical office and an easing of government support measures, it’s clear that the case for financial wellbeing in the workplace has never been more compelling or timely. Research tells us that 94% of UK employees admit to worrying about money.

And of those 77% say that money worries impact them at their work. 69% of UK employers believe that employees job performance is negatively affected when they’re under financial pressure. And as well as the impact on individuals, it also has a wider effect, for example, on the economy, with an estimated cost of £1.56 billion pound associated with low financial wellbeing each year as a result of absenteeism and presenteeism.

Geraint (3:02)
And Rhian when we talk about financial wellbeing and we’ve all heard it a million times, is there an actual definition of financial wellbeing and what does it actually mean?

Rhian (3:13)
Well, here at the Money and Pension Service or MaPS, which I’ll refer to us as going forward as well. We see financial wellbeing about making the most of your money day to day and it’s dealing with the unexpected being on track for a healthy financial future.

So in short, feeling confident and empowered. And when we talk about unexpected events, this could be anything you know from your washing machine breaking down to your car needing a service through to being diagnosed with an illness or chronic disease or navigating a pandemic. And for anyone who is worried about the impact of the pandemic on their finances at the moment, they can use the Money Navigator tool on the MoneyHelper website. And that provides tailored guidance based on each person’s individual circumstances to find a way forward with their finances.

Geraint (4:05)
And with that in mind then what is the overall picture of financial wellbeing across the country in Wales?

Rhian (4:10)
Well, even before COVID-19 there were significant challenges to financial wellbeing in Wales and our research tells us that in regards to how people feel 58% of adults in Wales feel that keeping up with their bills and credit commitments is a burden. And that 37% of adults in Wales feel that thinking about their financial situation makes them anxious.

People feeling like that isn’t too surprising when we also know that 27% of adults in Wales have less than £100 in savings and investments. 42% of adults in Wales don’t feel
confident about managing their money, and 53% of working age adults in Wales don’t have a plan for their finances in retirement. We also need to remember that COVID will have impacted on people differently from a financial perspective too.

Some people may well have seen themselves save money through COVID due to, you know, reduced costs and travelling to work and reduced childcare costs, for example, but some people will have had less money, and this could have been due to being furloughed, maybe reduced hours, or no enhanced pay for shift work, for example.

We were all in the same storm but we had very different boats. As employers, you may have had staff within your organisation who’ve worked through COVID. But we don’t know what impact COVID has had on their personal circumstances. Their partner could have lost their job or maybe they house share and their house mate can no longer pay the bills and they could be struggling.

Geraint (5:42)
Yeah, some worrying stats there, Rhian. In the workplace itself then what do you believe are the biggest contributing factors to poor financial wellbeing?

Rhian (5:51)
Okay, so firstly, we need to remember that good financial wellbeing isn’t about how much you earn. It’s about feeling secure and in control, making the most of your money day to day, and being able to deal with the unexpected and being on track for a healthy financial future.

Money plays a part in everything that we do in life, and it’s likely that COVID has impacted on people that may never have had many worries in the past. Employers may think that the financial wellbeing of their workers isn’t their responsibility, or that they need to be the experts in everything financial. But that’s not the case at all. As we’ve seen from the research I shared earlier, the reality is that staff would like their employer to provide this information and act as the enablers, the facilitators, and be that trusted messenger.

But also drawing on the expertise and support of other organisations to help develop a financial wellbeing programme that meets the needs of their employees within their organisation. Also, as a country, we’re not very good about talking about money. And there’s a stigma when it comes to having a conversation about money. Each November, we encourage that conversation through Talk Money week.

It’s the annual opportunity to encourage people to start talking about money, whether that’s with your children, your partner, your parents or your colleagues. And, sadly, nearly two in five parents and carers in Wales don’t talk to their children openly about money, missing out on an opportunity to help with children’s vital early understanding of money. And did you know that children learn their money skills by the age of seven? I know, it’s a bit of a surprise, isn’t it? So, it’s never too early to start teaching children about money. And despite COVID-19 Having a widespread impact on people’s finances, the stigma surrounding talking about money as a culture remains.

In previous research we’ve done, 32% of people in Wales stay silent about money worries with some of the reasons they give, including embarrassment or fear of being judged.

Geraint (7:59)
Yeah, I’ve got a six-year-old Rhian, so I better get talking about money with him before he gets to that landmark seven years old.

Rhian
You had.

Geraint
We mentioned kind of money there and worries and people worrying and some stark stats as well, everybody, I think it’s fair to say worries about money from time to time and whether they’re getting a good deal and if they’re being paid the right salary.

So, money’s always kind of floating around our brains. So, is there a link between money worries and mental health then?

Rhian (8:24)
Yes, there is. We need to remember that financial difficulties not only impact on your financial wellbeing, but they can also impact on your physical and mental wellbeing too. Financial wellbeing is just as important as mental and physical wellbeing, they all impact on each other and it’s hard to have one without the other. It’s therefore important to look at wellbeing holistically and not just look at physical, mental, and financial wellbeing in isolation.

If someone’s got to the point where their money worries are really impacting on their mental health, they may need support for their money issues, but also for their mental health issues too. So, accessing support from MaPS or MoneyHelper, for example, for their money worries, and mental health support from their employer, such as their employee assistance programme or even visiting their GP. Sometimes it needs that pincer approach in terms of support, for people to be able to move forward successfully.

If you are worried about money, you will bring this into the workplace which impacts on your performance in work. I mentioned presenteeism earlier too, money worries don’t go away once the employee has entered the workplace. And money worries may also be impacting on the employee’s relationships at home. They may also be excluding themselves from social circles or even going without essentials.

It can make people feel depressed, stressed or anxious making it difficult to manage money. For example, you might generally find it difficult to make decisions when it comes to budgeting or spending or spend money you don’t have on things you don’t need, and then regret it later. Symptoms of a mental illness
might cause you to behave impulsively, like, spending a lot of money all in one go.

And this can be made worse if your income goes down, for example, or if you have to stop or take time off work because you’re unwell. We’ve also spoken to employers in the past who’ve experienced employees phoning in sick towards the end of the month, and when they’ve looked in more detail at this is because they can’t afford to put petrol in the car to travel to work.

Sometimes money worries can be a symptom of poor mental wellbeing. Sometimes poor mental wellbeing can be the result of money worries. Back in 2018, for Mental Health Awareness Week, our research told us that more than six in ten of us in Wales have experienced poor mental wellbeing as a result of concerns about money. And two thirds of us have been worried about a loved one’s mental wellbeing linked to money worries.

Plus, six in ten people in Wales have experienced concerns over their own mental health or wellbeing because of money worries at some point in their lives, with more than a quarter saying that they were currently suffering from mental health issues as a result of their financial situation. And that was in 2018, before COVID. And as we can all appreciate, it wouldn’t have helped the situation.

Geraint (11:25)
No, not at all. Okay then, let’s flip things if we can. Let’s look at this from an employer’s perspective. What can employers do to support their staff then?

Rhian (11:34)
Well, that’s where we at the Money and Pension Service, and MaPS can help. As I’ve already said, employers don’t need to be financial experts, and can talk to us if they’re wondering where to start or looking at enhancing what they already offer with regard to financial wellbeing.

There are different ways that you can support your staff with financial wellbeing regardless of the size of your organisation. And we can help you do that. For example, you know, if you already have some support in place for employees with regards to financial wellbeing, is there something else you can do? This could be simply, you know, signposting to up to date information, including money and pension guidance, support in your induction programme, or sending a regular newsletter or email with top money saving tips.

Implementing a payroll saving scheme within the organisation, or, you know, create a wellbeing plan or strategy or if you already have one, ensuring you’re including financial wellbeing in there, or get involved in talk money week each year – great opportunity to share that with your workforce.

Building a relationship with Healthy Working Wales who have useful employer focused information on their website, and their team are able to signpost to MaPS and MoneyHelper too or if you don’t have anything in place, as I said, regardless of the size of your organisation, or the number of employees you have, speak to us about where to start. It can be as simple as just knowing where to signpost someone for help. But understanding what financial wellbeing is can be key to unlocking this. Here at MaPS, we want to build the financial wellbeing of the people of Wales and the UK.

Financial wellbeing isn’t just about helping people when they get into financial difficulty, which is very important, of course, it’s about building the financial resilience of the people of Wales and the UK, so they’re able to manage their money day to day, can deal with any unexpected event and they’re able to plan for their future. So as I said earlier, feeling financially resilient, confident and empowered.

Geraint (13:39)
And taking responsibility Rhian, responsibility is a big word, isn’t it? Is the responsibility just with the employer? Or does the employee have a degree of responsibility also?

Rhian (13:49)
We all have a personal responsibility to support our own financial wellbeing. But sometimes, you know, that can be a struggle because we don’t know where to start or may be scared to take that first step.

Providing financial wellbeing support within the workplace can help staff help themselves, they’ll know where to get access to free and impartial guidance that they can trust to support and build their own financial resilience. Employees with good financial wellbeing can also share their own experiences with colleagues too, which leads to a change in culture within the organisation and helps to remove that stigma about talking about money.

You know, you could have an employee who may have started budgeting, possibly using our MoneyHelper budget planner, or started saving through the payroll saving scheme. They then managed to save for Christmas and not had to go into debt that year to buy Christmas presents. As I said earlier, it’s not about how much you earn.

According to the latest MaPS financial wellbeing survey of more than 10,000 UK adults, people who have high financial wellbeing so you know, they feel secure and in control of their money are amongst the most content in society. In fact, people with high financial wellbeing were more satisfied with life than those in households with income over £50,000 per year. Which is proof that money alone doesn’t necessarily buy you happiness. So employees can start for example, with you know, do a budget, look at what money you have coming in and what goes out.

Look at the bills you pay, are there ways of getting a better deal, for example. Cut back on those non-essential items. Start saving even a very small amount. Does your employer offer a payroll saving scheme where you can save directly from your wages. Check your pay slip. When was the last time you did that? Are you on the right tax code? Check out the MoneyHelper website – wealth of information on there to help you. Or do the Couch to Financial Fitness programme, a free step by step programme from MoneyHelper. And that’s designed to help you build confidence in managing your money.

Inspired by, as you can probably tell, the popular step by step training app couch to 5k. And it coaches people through weekly activities like budgeting, managing bills and payments, shredding those costs and strengthening your savings, taking small steps at your own pace to boost your own financial confidence, and also from the comfort your own armchair.

And we know finding the help you need about money and pensions can often feel like a minefield and seem impossible to navigate. And that’s where MoneyHelper can help you do that. And if you are struggling with any debts, please remember you’re not alone.

Don’t wait to take action because the sooner you tackle the situation, the better you will feel. Call MoneyHelper to speak to someone straight away for free, impartial and confidential support. Or look at our debt advice locator tool to find a free and confidential debt advisor in your local area.

Geraint (16:57)
Lots of amazing tips there. I personally was on the wrong tax code for years when I first started working when I was 21. So yeah, fantastic stuff there Rhian. How can MaPs or Money and Pensions Service to give it its full title help employers in Wales then?

Rhian (17:12)
Well, MaPS has been set up by government to help ensure that people throughout the UK have access to the information they need to make effective financial decisions throughout their lives. And we give free unbiased money and pension guidance people can trust to help them make informed choices. And our vision is that everyone makes the most of their money and their pensions. Talk to us. If you’re wondering where to start or looking at enhancing what you already offer.

From embedding our money guidance tools and content into your intranet, for example, to helping you evaluate your financial wellbeing strategy, we can support your organisation, you could signpost employees to the MoneyHelper website and helpline, making those money and pension choices clearer. And MoneyHelper is a free and impartial service available online, over the phone, WhatsApp and web chat. And it also recommends further trusted support if you need it too.

Geraint (18:12)
And can you give us some example situations of financial challenges and how they can be tackled then.

Rhian (18:18)
We’ll all have financial challenges at some point in our lives. And having that resilience to be able to deal with these is key to good overall wellbeing. There are also key life events we can prepare and plan for. For example, you know, if you’re buying a house, having a baby starting a job or planning for your retirement.

Unfortunately, there are other life events we may need some extra support and help with, this may be a relationship breakdown, a job loss or bereavement. MoneyHelper is there to help you with that trusted guidance.

Geraint (18:54)
And on that then, on a human level, why should employers be invested in supporting the financial wellbeing of their employees then?

Rhian (19:02)
Well, we want people in Wales to attain and sustain the best financial wellbeing their means allow. And employers are key to accessing the majority of working aged people and can be the starting point for so many of us on that journey.

Geraint (19:17)
Okay, let’s have a look at this then from an employee perspective, if we can Rhian. As an example, if an employee’s suffering from financial wellbeing issues and wanted to notify their employer, what would be the process of asking for help?

Rhian (19:31)
Well, the process will be different within each organisation. But the key is that there isn’t a stigma to asking for that help and support in the first place. It’s important that the employee is able to take that first step to access that help. So, if employers already provide financial wellbeing support in the workplace or are considering this following discussions with their employees, the employee will hopefully be aware of where to access that help. So, this may be information on the staff intranet or other communication channels used by that employer.

Initially, the employee may want to deal with the matter themselves and having this information on hand will enable them to do this. So, if the employee is still struggling and isn’t able to access that help, they can either speak to their manager or possibly their mental health first aider if one is available within the organisation as well.

The key thing here is recognising that employees will need some form of support at some point in their lives, so it’s good for the organisation to take financial wellbeing on board and be aware of where they can signpost staff to for that help and embed financial wellbeing into the organisation.

This helps to remove any stigma and becomes the cultural norm within an organisation. As I said, it’s not about the employer being the expert, it’s about recognising it’s important for their employee’s overall wellbeing, knowing where to go for guidance about what to do and putting those things in place. And money and pensions are of course linked. And here at MaPS we want to make sure that employees are aware of where they can access pension guidance too.

Geraint (21:16)
Rhian, thank you for all your advice and wisdom so far, you can take a break and relax a little bit now. Lawrence has been listening. Let’s kick things off with you then. And can you tell us what employers and employees need to be aware of and what help is available out for them?

Lawrence (21:32)
Yes, well, of course when you know when we talk about financial wellbeing, pensions play a key part of this. The planning for later life contributes to good financial wellbeing. Now as Rhian’s already said, it’s never been more important to support employee financial wellbeing.

Now we’ve all heard on the news, the Coronavirus situation and the economic impact of this, it may be grabbing all the attention at the moment. But even before the pandemic, many employees struggled with debt. They’ve had money worries, they’ve had bad credit and you know, a lack of knowledge about effective financial planning.

Now, employers may want to be able to help their employees from financial and stress and some worries they may be suffering from, they understand the toll that financial worry can have on someone’s physical and mental health, and then how this manifests in the workforce.

It may be, poor sleep, trouble focusing at work, you know, increased absenteeism or maybe some friction between staff and management. Now, however it exhibits itself, it’s bad news for the employer as well as the employee.

Now as a result, many employers have introduced ongoing support, maybe annual events, wellbeing weeks to raise awareness and provide information for staff in these areas. But I guess with a focus on day-to-day issues, you know, a crucial part of employees long term financial wellbeing that often gets overlooked is their workplace pension.

Geraint (23:04)
Yeah, Rhian touched on this earlier how we’re not very good about talking about money here in Wales, people are private, some people are more private than others. How involved should an employer be when considering pension provision for their staff then Lawrence?

Lawrence (23:18)
Well, I guess you know, by integrating your pension offering with your broader financial wellbeing strategy, employers can help their staff learn and understand how to build a solid financial foundation throughout their lives, rather than just you know, crisis manage for part of it. Now, obviously, employers need to adhere to automatic enrolment legislation, for example, however, employers may want to pay more than the legal minimum into a pension for their staff. Or they can even set up a bespoke pension arrangement with various funds on offer that are tailored and better suited to the actual workforce.

Now, the
key thing is research. Firstly, you know, you need to know where you currently stand. Now, this may even be through like a staff survey, to understand the current financial wellbeing of your employees. Or you could do this via you know, focus groups or steering groups. Now this would put your employees in the driving seat and shows you exactly what they want from their financial wellbeing package.

And then what you can do to improve your offering. Now it’s important, you can use these sessions to probe your staff’s financial wellbeing knowledge generally, you know, for example, how do they think about pensions when it comes to their finances, if at all.

Now, what significance do they give to pension saving against maybe other shorter- and medium-term goals? A lack of pension engagement from staff, can usually be attributed to a lack of clarity and maybe unclear communication about long term benefits. So I guess from an employer’s point of view, think of how you can improve your communication and then in turn, make your workplace pension, the main feature of your financial wellbeing benefits package. Now as a company, you as the employer, you’re in a unique position to help with pension planning. A good pension scheme may be a deciding factor in why an employee has chosen your company to work for in the first place and can play a large part in employee retention.

Choosing the right time to discuss your pension offering with your employees can help emphasise the importance of a pension. For example, it could be part of your strategy to help them educate them on maybe increasing pension contributions if they’re starting a family, buying a home, or even getting married. You know, these are big life milestones. And an employee is often looking ahead towards the future and then considering the financial implications of such large decisions. Now sometimes, they may be more concerned with a more immediate financial worries, which is understandable. And you might find that pensions are low on the list of priorities. Now, in cases like this, it can be useful to highlight that maybe your company contribution could increase as their personal contribution increases.

Obviously, it’s dependent on your own personal contribution strategy, now talk to them, and how this could help them in later life and stress that this is a good opportunity to take advantage of a key benefit of their employment package. Now, finally, some staff might not have any room in their personal finances to increase their pension contributions above that minimum. At this point, you may want to emphasise, you know, the financial wellbeing resources that you have in place for your business. It may be that your employee is suffering from financial stress. So, you know, ensure there’s communication regarding any employee assistance programme that you offer, or any other resources you have as well.

Geraint (27:15)
Now, some employers might be listening, and this might be ringing a chord with them and they’re thinking, okay, this is great stuff from Lawrence here, but where can I go for further help and guidance? Can you steer us in the right direction with that Lawrence?

Lawrence (27:26)
Yes, of course. There are valuable resources that employers can use to bring pensions centre stage of their financial wellbeing strategy. First of all, chat to your current pension provider, or maybe your benefit consultant. What work have they done with similar employers to yourself? Do they offer any additional help, such as maybe on site or maybe online financial education sessions? Do they have any other services that might further engage your employees as well?

You can also signpost your staff to a wealth of free impartial information on the MoneyHelper website, just go to MoneyHelper.org.uk, click on pensions and retirement, and there’s a lot more information there as well. Just to let you know, the MoneyHelper also offers the free service, Pension Wise. Again, it’s via the MoneyHelper website. Now Pension Wise, it is a free, impartial pensions guidance session. For those members with a defined contribution pension, where you’ve got a pot of money. And it takes you through all of the options that, how you can get access to your money. And as an individual is available to individuals over the age of 50. Now when employees start to think about retirement, it can help to get an idea as to you know, what level of income do they want and maybe need to achieve in retirement.

Now, here a good starting point is to have a look at retirement living standards, if you just type into your internet provider retirementlivingstandards.org.uk and these standards here would describe, you know, the cost of three different baskets of goods and services and is established through independent research with the public, setting out what the public agree to be a realistic and relevant expectation for retirement. Now these baskets include things like you know, household bills, food and drink, transport, you know, key things holidays and leisure, I guess when you’ve retired, and clothing and social events as well.

Now these retirement living standards set up three publicly determined levels of lifestyles, a minimum a moderate and then a comfortable level of income in retirement. They’re designed to help people think, I guess in concrete ways about the lifestyle they want when it comes to retiring and to understand the cost of this as well.

Geraint (30:02)
Yeah, amazing stuff. I had no idea these links and helps existed so I’m sure everyone listening are learning as well. In the context of saving for the future then, how can a workplace pension help?

Lawrence (30:14)
Well, when it comes to saving into a pension, the government likes to give us a bonus as a way of rewarding us for saving for our future. This comes in the form of tax relief. When you earn tax relief from your pension contributions, some of that money that you would have paid in tax on your earnings actually goes into your pension pot instead rather than to the government.

Tax relief is paid on your pension contributions at the highest rate of income tax you pay. So, a basic-rate taxpayer would get pension tax relief at a rate of 20%. A Higher-rate taxpayer can claim 40% pension tax relief and then the highest, the additional-rate taxpayers can actually claim 45% pension tax relief. So you can see there’s a good level of bonus there from the government to help people save for their retirement.

Now in addition to the tax relief you get, employees can also benefit from contributions from their employer as well. The contributions are usually a set percentage of an employees’ earnings. Obviously an employer will set their workplace pension rules to define which parts of their staff’s earnings are included for contributions. This is known as ‘pensionable earnings’. If a scheme is being used for automatic enrolment, generally ‘earnings’ will cover all taxable income from an employer. As mentioned earlier, there are minimum contributions that companies have to make.

Now for an automatic enrolment scheme, the employer has to contribute a minimum of 3% of pensionable salary. And then the total contribution from both the employee and the employer has to come to at least 8%. So that means if your company is paying 3%, then the employee has to contribute 5% as well.

But I guess, just to give an example maybe of how tax relief on pension contributions can help within a workplace pension scheme. Now just assume an employee is in a defined contribution pension scheme, ok? Every payday, in this example, the employee pays in £40 and then the employer pays in their £30.

Now the employee gets 20% tax relief automatically so in this example a £10 tax relief gets added straight away. Now as you can see in this example, even though the employee is only paying £40 into their pension pot in this particular month a total of £80 gets credited when you factor in the tax relief you get and the employers contribution as well.

Geraint (33:00)
It’s like having our own Martin Lewis here but a Welsh version.

Before you both leave Lawrence and Rhian, we’ll start with you Rhian if you don’t mind, do you have any top tips if you like, money and pension tips that our listeners can take away with them today?

Rhian (33:15)
Oh yes. So, if you’re an employer you can visit the Money and Pensions Service website, maps.org.uk to find out more about how you can support the financial wellbeing of your employees and workers or get in touch with us to discuss this further and how we can help you.

Now, our tips may be for employers to share with employees or employees to have a look at themselves.

• Look at doing a budget and see what money you’ve got coming in and going out.
• Stay on top of your bills, especially those priority bills like your rent, your mortgage, your heating. Knowing what bills to pay first is really important.
• And, check your payslip as I said earlier – are you on the right tax code? You can check this out yourself on the gov.uk website.
• And think about starting to save if you can. A great way is through the payroll savings scheme that your employer may be offering and if they don’t offer this, look at other ways you can save for example, through an ISA account or the government’s Help To Save account.
• And finally, I’d say if you are worried about money, please take that first step and get some help. To find a free and confidential debt adviser you can use the Debt Advice Locator Tool on the MoneyHelper website, or phone our money guidance and ask to speak to somebody to help you and that number is 0800 138 7777.

Geraint (34:46)
Great stuff Rhian. And Lawrence you’re not getting away with it either. Can you give us a top tip before you leave as well please?

Lawrence (34:53)
I would say

• Think about what your workforce wants from a pension arrangement. Carry out some staff surveys to get some feedback on that
•  You may want to highlight the benefits of pension saving in the workplace pension scheme, that is, the tax relief you get plus that “free” money on offer by the employer.
• And also signpost your employees to the various wealth of free guidance on offer from MoneyHelper as well.

Geraint (35:20)
Fantastic Stuff. Rhian and Laurence I can’t thank you enough. I’m sure employees and employers will be re-listening to this podcast time after time making notes on everything you said. So thank you for your wisdom, thank you for your advice and have a fantastic day. Diolch yn fawr iawn, thank you.

Laurence
Diolch.

Rhian
Diolch.

Geraint
Now I’m sure we’ve only touched the surface of this topic so employers looking for support with financial wellbeing in the workplace can visit the MaPS website at maps.org.uk or employees can find that wealth of information on money and pensions on the MoneyHelper website.

I’m sure I’ll be looking at the Couch to Financial Fitness Programme myself also!

That’s it for this episode of the Healthy Working Wales Podcast, thank you for listening. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, visit the Healthy Working Wales social media channels and website for further content on how to build a healthy workplace, healthy workforce and healthy business. Please do also rate, review, share and subscribe to our channels

I’m Geraint Hardy and this is the Healthy Working Wales podcast for Public Health Wales.

Diolch am wrando. Thanks for joining us.

Geraint (0:02)
Hello, I’m Geraint Hardy and welcome to the Healthy Working Wales podcast brought to you by Public Health Wales.

Over the series, we’ll be chatting to experts about a range of workplace health issues, empowering employers with the knowledge and support they need to help keep the Welsh workforce healthy, and in work.

Geraint (0:29)
In this episode, we’ll be talking about environmental sustainability and what this means for employers in and around Wales. Employer action on environmental sustainability is more crucial than ever, with the Welsh Government joining the race to make Wales net zero by 2050. And to build on this ambition of being a greener, stronger and fairer country.

My guest today, Sue Husband OBE is director of the charity Business in the Community Cymru, which is a business lead membership organisation dedicated to fostering responsible business. Sue has previously worked in senior roles for the Department for Education, including leading the National Apprenticeship Service and the National Career Service.

Sue, welcome. How are you today?

Sue (1:12)
I’m good, thank you, Geraint. And thanks for asking, how are you?

Geraint (1:14)
Yeah, good. Thanks.

I think it’s fair to say we pick the big topic today, which is, which is fantastic.

And I think we can agree that environmental sustainability is a hot topic as well, and on many organisations’ agendas, especially in the wake of the pandemic, and given the growing concerns about the climate crisis, which we’ve seen, develop in recent months impacting on countries all across the world.

And I think it’s also safe to say that these events highlight how important it is for organisations to change the way they both think and act socially, environmentally, and economically, Sue.

Sue (1:46)
Oh, absolutely Geraint. And as Business in the Communities Director here in Wales, I’m actually fortunate enough to work with hundreds of organisations across the country, who are already acting responsibly and doing their bit whether that’s socially, environmentally and economically.

But the reality is, every single business in Wales has a role to play in taking action to avert the climate crisis. And we all need to do so much more. And one of the things that we pride ourselves on in Business in the Community or BITC is that we work with our members to continually improve not just their responsible business practice, but also to use that collective impact for the benefit of communities.

You know, our members want to share their best practice, they want to support others to do more, and generally work for the good of all. And I think that is the most important thing that we can all do not just become individual responsible businesses, but actually work together to help Wales to become a responsible business nation.

I think it’d be helpful for the listeners actually just to share the areas that our members focus on, because they look at: developing a skilled and inclusive workforce, ensuring work is good for everyone, innovating to sustain and regenerate the planet, which is what we’re focusing on today, and building thriving communities. And they’re all interlinked.

And I think if we’re truly to tackle the climate challenge in front of us, we’ve got to look at our communities, the work we provide, and the skills and the shape of the workforces, to have the impact that we need, because the climate crisis is here, and it’s now and we all know we’re facing this task alongside multiple societal challenges.

You know, we’re in the midst of a global pandemic, our cost of living is rising. And I think, you know, for your listeners, you know, that awareness of the inequalities in Wales in health and wealth are growing, and it is increasing concern that our children’s lives aren’t going to be as good as ours. And that can’t be right. You know, this is not the world that you and I want.

It’s definitely not the world that we want in Wales, and Wales, you know, being the first nation to declare a climate emergency, it was the first nation to appoint a Future Generations Commissioner. We’re a proud and ambitious nation and we’ve all got to do more.

We’ve got to act now. And I think the need for personal and vitally organisational leadership on climate and social justice has never been so stark.

Geraint (4:10)
Yeah, and with that in mind there let’s look at this from a business perspective, and how organisations can do their bit to become more sustainable and help protect the planet for our future generations, our kids and their kids, of course, as well and further generations.

Why does employer action to becoming more sustainable matter and what are the benefits?

Sue (4:30)
Oh it matters, I think, because without employer action, we won’t be able to make the changes that we so urgently need.

So, despite the huge challenge, I mean, I’m genuinely optimistic about the positive impact that we can have. That’s businesses, organisations and citizens across Wales. We know that by 2030, the UK needs to have delivered on its commitment to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius, something many consider only possible by achieving net zero carbon economy.

And the Welsh Government has set out a plan to get to a net zero Wales by 2050. But are clear that this means we start now with a decade of action. And it’ll be companies that see tackling climate change as part of future proofing their business that really prosper in this changing world. But it can’t be done alone. You know, it needs collaboration that’s between businesses, governments, civil society. And our research actually shows that this is what citizens want, you know, there are benefits attached.

So BITC and YouGov conducted some research late last year, we did this with members of the public and businesses. And a report that we’ve just released that is freely available, called The Right Climate for Business Leading a Just Transition, actually shares insights from this research and some recommendations. So, we can deliver what we could call a fair and an inclusive transition to net zero, resilient future where people can thrive, and nature can thrive.

And if I can Geraint I’ll just share a few of the benefits that we found. You know, firstly, the big one, people want to work for and buy from companies that are taking climate action, and they will remove their business or as employees take action within companies that are not. 72% of people from the survey say it’s important that the businesses they buy from take climate action.

And while people see government as primarily responsible for driving action on climate, they do see businesses as having responsibility.

And I think crucially, customers want the businesses they buy from to be taking climate action. Society you know, attitudes are changing. The younger generation are demanding those of us with power, and with influence to take our responsibility for employees, our communities and the environment seriously. And there’s a significant benefit for businesses to tap into this movement and demand for businesses to do more.

And lastly, I’d say innovation, you know, increasing brand value, engaging new customers and attracting new talent. They’re all among the rewards. Business is really challenging right now and I think taking climate action, you know, businesses need to understand this is this is vital to your long term success, and attracting talent into your organisation.

So, despite these benefits our research still shows that actually, most people don’t know what businesses are doing to tackle climate action. And those that do know, don’t trust businesses to keep their promises. So with trust in businesses to act on climate dangerously low, I think it’s up to businesses and their leaders to really show rather than tell how they’re acting to address the climate crisis.

And the last point I want to make is that both businesses and the public believe that within our current system, the risks and the benefits of climate change will not be fairly distributed. The people and organisations that are already most vulnerable stand to lose even more.

But that’s not inevitable. I think in the words of a young climate activist speaking at COP26, it is now up to business leaders to prove us wrong.

Geraint (8:17)
Yeah, indeed it is. So there you mentioned lots of hopes, lots of targets and then you mentioned that word trust.

Can you provide listeners with some examples of organisations which have become more sustainable in how they operate to reduce their carbon footprint and impact on the planet and how that’s benefited them from a business point of view?

Sue (8:38)
Oh, absolutely, I’d love to.

I’ll start with one that I think really demonstrates that sustainability can be good for business. So a company listeners will be familiar with, media company Sky, one of the changes they’ve made is to a key product as part of their commitment to become net zero by 2030 by delivering carbon neutral TV, Sky has launched the first TV to be certified as a carbon neutral product, their new product, Sky Glass saves energy, because it’s bringing in three devices into one.

And it’s the only TV currently that comes in recyclable packaging free from single use plastic. They’ve also been working with natural capital partners to invest in energy attributable certificates to power Sky Glass, within renewable electricity for its first year of use, and offset with renewable energy generation projects. So one simple example, a more local one, South Wales Police who’ve been looking at turning green, so as well as their fleet, which they’ve really reviewed, they’ve created a state-of-the-art Police Learning College that addresses climate change impacts and fulfils the wellbeing of Future Generations Act.

It’s including 50% reduction of the building’s embodied carbon footprint, renewable energy investments, sustainable urban drainage and blue green infrastructure. And the college also benefits the wellbeing and climate resilience of the local community. And a final one, you know, this change doesn’t have to be product driven or even related to your core business.

Sometimes it could just be a happy by product. For example, Anglian Water Services who are using their waste heat to power food production. And Anglian Water partnered with Greencoat Capital and Oasthouse ventures to develop two of the country’s largest greenhouses warmed by waste heat from the water recycling centres. And these greenhouses can produce 12% of the UK’s tomatoes, they’ve created 300 permanent new jobs and reduce the carbon footprint of tomato production by 75%.

And, you know, that’s just so unexpected, but it’s a wonderful story about how a business can do good with things that are by products of their industry. So just three simple examples of organisations that have become more sustainable in their operations. But we’ve got dozens of other case studies available on BITC’s website.

Geraint (11:11)
Yeah, some good stats there, I like the tomato one in particular.

What about procurement and purchasing from other companies then what opportunities does this provide to influence other organisations to operate in a way that’s more sustainable.

Have you got examples you can draw on to illustrate how this can be done.

Sue (11:30)
Yeah, and there’s some really lovely ones that come to mind and from a couple of businesses indigenous to Wales, really showing how the power of how you spend and invest your money can really make an impact.

So, I’ll start with Bluestone National Park resort in the beautiful Pembrokeshire and their free-range breaks. So they want to be the most responsible short break resort in the UK. And they’re doing some great things. They have 1000 beds that need changing twice a week, so that’s a lot of sheets.

Their supplier was returning the clean laundry in individual plastic bags, and Bluestone wanted to change this. So they re-procured found a very local business Pengarreg Laundry, whose bid for the business had sustainability at its heart, they were successful, and as a result, over 200,000 single use plastic items have now been eliminated every year.

So laundry bags are packed at the laundry, they’re reused every time and they used for the dirty bed clothes too. And with the laundry also being more local, there’s less miles needed to transport the bedding and local people are employed. You know, it’s a lovely example and Bluestone have also made some tough decisions. They’ve stopped purchasing items that were highly profitable for them, like bottled water, so you can’t buy bottled water or drinks at the resort now.

They’ve got a free water supply around the resort and they sell fill-up fizzy drinks in their bars. And holiday makers are told in advance to bring their own reusable bottle or can buy when on site. And as a result of this, they’ve actually saved on 42,000 you know, plastic bottles. It’s a great story. And finally, because I think Bluestone is just such a great example and really easy for people to understand.

You know, they’re helping other local businesses to through community partnership. They have hundreds of tonnes of grass cuttings coming off their lodge lawns and recreational areas throughout the year. And that’s given to the neighbouring farmer who adds the grass to his manure reserve to create natural fertiliser for crops. So a really, you know, a really great example of the circular economy. And if I can, I’ll just use one more example close to home and that’s Castell Howell Foods.

Castell Howell Foods are a food supplier from humble family beginnings, but a really wonderful example of a business that’s adapted and shown valuable leadership in responsible business to their peers in the sector and other proudly Welsh businesses. They’ve engaged with a range of Welsh Government strategies, including the Economic Action Plan and the economic contract, which is intended to drive prosperity for all, Castell Howell are also members of three Welsh food clusters, and they work with a National Farmers Union to support their own net zero targets.

And I think all of this has contributed to them being in a in a much stronger position when bidding for business and meeting responsible supplier requirements, which has really helped to put a thriving, very values led Welsh business firmly on the map.

Geraint (14:34)
Yeah, some fantastic examples there, Sue, but I think if someone was listening to this, and they were a bit negative about this subject matter, what they potentially might say is for Sky’s example, which we mentioned earlier, that’s going to cost the consumer more to get Sky Glass.

From a point of view from a business owner what they’ve done in Bluestone, their profit margins have been massively affected. So there’s a hit that people have got to take to make this happen, I suppose that’s one thing, people with a negative mindset have to get their head around.

Sue (15:03)
Yeah, and you’re in your right Geraint and I think let’s use the example of Bluestone, they’ve had to invest up front, they’ve made some difficult business decisions and stopped some things that actually have been profitable for them.

But I think they would be the first to say that is really helping differentiate themselves so when people are looking at a holiday within the UK, they can see all of the things that Bluestone are doing, and actually it is encouraging more customers their way. So I think for a lot of businesses, this will be really good for business, you know, very quickly, because customers will be looking for more sustainable businesses.

But I think for others where it might take longer for that return, I would just say that think about the cost of not making these changes. You know, there is a lot of evidence now showing that the consumer is being more careful about how they’re spending their money.

And the younger generation definitely want to see this change. So I would say for all businesses, you need to think about making these changes, there is some investment upfront, but it will pay dividends.

Geraint (16:03)
Okay, so if an employer is listening to this now, and may still feel that this topic simply doesn’t apply to them as a business, and perhaps there isn’t enough capacity or time to think about it and take action.

Or they may find the topic, Sue, overwhelming, which is kind of fair enough, it’s a big topic, and they still haven’t got a clue where to begin, what would your message be for those employers? And how could they get started? What’s the first step?

Sue (16:28)
Yeah, no, it’s a really good question. And I’d start by saying, make the time you know, find the capacity, you’ve got to get started. And to treat climate action, as importantly, as you would your operations, your profit health and safety or any other core element of your business model. But get started now, every single business must act if we’re going to make the difference that we need to, to avert the climate crisis. And the change will be for good.

And not just for the planet, but for your organisation and your employees too. So, you know, I would start to look for the quick wins and simple things you can start doing today to signal a change. But ideally, every business should be thinking about three things. Firstly, targeting net zero, and the sooner the better. And that’s about creating and implementing climate action plans with robust Net Zero targets rooted in the science for as close to 2030 as possible. I think you’re right in the point you make Geraint, this may feel daunting and unachievable for some businesses.

But there is help available and a lot of really good help and guidance for free from people who want to help. And that’s whether that’s from BITC, maybe the FSB (Federation of Small Businesses), your chambers, Business Wales has great free advice or Cynnal Cymru, who are experts in this area, there is a lot of support available here in Wales. The second thing I would say for businesses to do is build your skills to thrive in the transition. And we need everyone on this, you know, ensure your employees at all levels have got the skills and clear lines of accountability they need to deliver and are rewarded for their contributions.

Again, there’s help available and a lot of FE colleges and universities across Wales are offering courses supported by Welsh Government to help educate staff. And thirdly, I’d say involve diverse stakeholders to sort of co-create real solutions.

So you can protect the most vulnerable and ensure the benefits of this transition are felt across communities. And I’d stress here that young people are the ones we need to look to. Young people can bring the urgent attention about the planet and the changes in attitude that are so desperately needed in the business world. And I would encourage you to try and create intergenerational cooperation and involvement, because that brings out the strength of each generation together. So you’ve got the experience and knowledge from the older and the passion, urgency and drive from the younger.

And as with my other points, ask for help, you know, speak with businesses who are a little further along, share ideas, and work together. At BITC we’ve got, you know, readily available resources, including our seven steps for climate action. This sets out how businesses can deliver a just and fair transition to a resilient net zero future. And taking the seven steps will help any organisation ensure that their business model is climate proof and contribute to a future where both people and nature can thrive.

And taking the steps will also support in creating value and enhance the prosperity of employees of your customers, your supply chain and communities. And I think you know, we all need a sustainable business model and one that’s built to last.

Geraint (19:50)
Yes, it’s funny, isn’t it? Yeah. You mentioned young people there. Young people, they kind of they know what’s going on. They care already. It’s the kind of the older generation needs to be educated on this, there’s some really valuable information and links in societies that can really help the older generation, the business leaders, adapt their natural way of living because they need to make that change.

Sue (20:10)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, the future generations as a Young Leaders Academy, and there are some fantastic young brains coming through that. And that might be something that businesses connect with them. I know, they’re looking for business mentors, for their young leaders.

So that that might be a route that businesses want to go to, to get some, you know, young brains on how their businesses can adapt.

Geraint 20:30
Yeah, so taking all this useful information on board, this is fantastic this, Sue, as an employer, how can you engage your workforce to get involved and furthermore, with the pandemic, which has pushed a lot of us to work from home, how can organisations promote and encourage their staff and perhaps also their clients as well, to live a more sustainable lifestyle away from the workplace?

Sue 20:51
So, the first thing, I’d say that we’ve all got a responsibility to do more, and to live our lives more sustainably. But employers have a role to play in, I guess, helping, guiding, supporting their employees and, and I think as you suggest, their clients too to be more sustainable.

You know, I’ve seen that the businesses that actively engage their workforce in the changes they need to make get the better results within the business, but with their staff too, you know, their staff actually become advocates for that change and for the organisation.

The research that we undertook actually showed that only 24% of customers are aware of what businesses are doing on climate action, you know, and of them 62% don’t trust businesses to do what they promise. So even though almost three quarters of people, so 72%, want the businesses they buy from to take climate action, less than a quarter of them actually know what the businesses are doing. And even within businesses, most employees are unaware of what their organisation is doing or don’t think their employees are doing enough.

So businesses not only need to commit to climate action, but they’ve got a massive opportunity to really build trust through involving diverse communities and showing how their promises translate into action and results. And that will be great for business. And as for employees living a sustainable life away from work, I think we need to raise awareness, I think we need to create good habits, and to do things that encourage the right behaviours.

So something as simple as encouraging staff to cycle or walk to work, perhaps having a bike scheme, or just having suitable facilities for staff to store their bike. You know, some businesses have reviewed their pensions and how they’re invested, Make My Money Work is a brilliant movement to encourage pensions to be invested in sustainable businesses, and people entering the workforce right now will value this approach that will mean a lot to them. And, you know, the best practice we see across the businesses we work with, will have employee engagement with staff involved throughout designing, delivering and driving this change.

But I would say businesses don’t need to limit their influence to their own direct business, they can positively influence their supply chains, their customers and clients, as well as their employees to, you know, have the potential, you know, to really have a huge impact. I think, you know, the last thing I’ll say on this is, businesses just need to set the example.

You know, make it as straightforward as you can for your employees to do the right thing. Make it clear to suppliers, the value you place on them acting responsibly, and support your suppliers through this chain, because inevitably, there will be smaller businesses than you and business actions, you know, the actions business take are key to having this just transition.

And that’s why you know, we at BITC are so passionate about businesses involvement, and their crucial role in taking climate action.

Geraint 23:51
Yeah, the listeners listening right now have been provided with some superb and useful information today, but to move forward and begin their journey becoming more sustainable, you would love them to start right now, after listening to this podcast today. And as a final kind of word, if you’d like, what is your takeaway message for our listeners today, Sue?

Sue 24:10
Gosh, I think it would have to be that there is hope. And I’d want businesses to imagine what that future could look like. And if we could, you know, collectively turn this biggest challenge facing mankind into potentially our greatest achievement.

So, you know, think of the good jobs that we could create that are better for us. More greener spaces, cleaner air and water, and generally improved health and wellbeing. And I think, think of your local community that you’ll probably all have spent much more time in over the last couple of years, you know, as well as those communities that have previously been excluded. And imagine them being revived as we work together to sort of find solutions and opportunities in a thriving regenerative economy.

And what we do is important, but how we do it is equally critical, and we must make sure that this transition to a resilient Net Zero Wales is fair and just enabling people and nature to thrive. And I think that is the most important thing that we can do. So, it’s not just as individual businesses, but working together to really help make Wales become a responsible business nation.

Geraint 25:22
Here, here! Sue, thank you so much for all the information, all the guidance you provided us on a huge topic today. And I’m sure everyone listening will find it really helpful. So thank you for breaking it all down for us and starting our journey for like if you’re starting today if you’re doing some great work out there already, fantastic stuff. Sue, thank you so much for your time today.

Sue 25:42
Thank you Geraint.

Geraint 25:43
Now I’m sure we’ve only touched the surface of this topic. So employers and employees seeking more advice and guidance should visit the Healthy Working Wales social media channels and website where there’s a variety of support services, and best practice guidance.

That’s it for this episode of the Healthy Working Wales podcast. Thank you for listening. We really hope you enjoyed this episode so please do rate review, share and subscribe.

I’m Geraint Hardy. And this is the Healthy Work Wales podcast for Public Health Wales.

Diolch am wrando. Thanks for joining us.